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years/2008/food.html
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@ -46,51 +46,26 @@ var wgEnableWriteAPI = false;
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<h1 class="firstHeading">Expo 2008/Food</h1> <h1 class="firstHeading">Expo 2008/Food</h1>
@ -115,27 +90,27 @@ var wgRestrictionMove = [];
</ul> </ul>
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</td></tr></table><script type="text/javascript"> if (window.showTocToggle) { var tocShowText = "show"; var tocHideText = "hide"; showTocToggle(); } </script> </td></tr></table>
<a name="Current_discussion"></a><h2> <span class="mw-headline">Current discussion</span></h2> <a name="Current_discussion"></a><h2> <span class="mw-headline">Current discussion</span></h2>
<a name="What_to_buy_in_UK"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">What to buy in UK</span></h3> <a name="What_to_buy_in_UK"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">What to buy in UK</span></h3>
<p><i>This is from Djuke's email sent 29 Jun.</i> <p><i>This is from Djuke's email sent 29 Jun.</i>
</p><p><br /> </p><p><br />
Curry paste --&gt; am lost as to how much Curry paste --&gt; am lost as to how much
</p> </p>
<dl><dd>I think 2 of the giant Patak's jars is what we normally go for. I was in possession of 1 of these jars, which I've left in the expo food cabinet. It is about 70% full. Since it's a relatively small expo, I would go for one more. The one I put in the t-store is Tandoori, so get something else- Rogon Josh perhaps. -<a href="/caving/wiki/User:Aaron" title="User:Aaron">Aaron</a> <dl><dd>I think 2 of the giant Patak's jars is what we normally go for. I was in possession of 1 of these jars, which I've left in the expo food cabinet. It is about 70% full. Since it's a relatively small expo, I would go for one more. The one I put in the t-store is Tandoori, so get something else- Rogon Josh perhaps. -Aaron</a>
</dd></dl> </dd></dl>
<p>Oatso --&gt; 20 each (i.e. on avg people do 50% caving, if avg person stays 3 <p>Oatso --&gt; 20 each (i.e. on avg people do 50% caving, if avg person stays 3
weeks that's 10 days, with 2 oatso's per morning) * 20 people = 400 and we weeks that's 10 days, with 2 oatso's per morning) * 20 people = 400 and we
probably have some left(?) probably have some left(?)
</p> </p>
<dl><dd>I put a bunch of Oatso in the expo food cabinet a few days ago (before the t-store session that edvin organized) which came from Ollie Betts. If I had to guess, I would say 20 packets, some very nice flavours. -<a href="/caving/wiki/User:Aaron" title="User:Aaron">Aaron</a> 21:38, 29 June 2008 (BST) <dl><dd>I put a bunch of Oatso in the expo food cabinet a few days ago (before the t-store session that edvin organized) which came from Ollie Betts. If I had to guess, I would say 20 packets, some very nice flavours. -Aaron</a> 21:38, 29 June 2008 (BST)
</dd></dl> </dd></dl>
<p>Peanut butter --&gt; 15 pots (or 2 large ones)? <p>Peanut butter --&gt; 15 pots (or 2 large ones)?
</p><p>1-2 serving green dragon type Instant FLAVOURED noodles --&gt; 350? </p><p>1-2 serving green dragon type Instant FLAVOURED noodles --&gt; 350?
</p><p>Powdered cheese sauce? </p><p>Powdered cheese sauce?
</p><p>Can you get tubs of right type of hot choc out in Austria? </p><p>Can you get tubs of right type of hot choc out in Austria?
</p> </p>
<dl><dd>By "right type" I think we mean that it only needs water rather than milk- i.e. already has powdered milk in it. -<a href="/caving/wiki/User:Aaron" title="User:Aaron">Aaron</a> 21:39, 29 June 2008 (BST) <dl><dd>By "right type" I think we mean that it only needs water rather than milk- i.e. already has powdered milk in it. - Aaron</a> 21:39, 29 June 2008 (BST)
</dd></dl> </dd></dl>
<p>We have some dried veg do we need to get more? <p>We have some dried veg do we need to get more?
</p><p>The Tortellini appears to be only available from 1 supermarket (according </p><p>The Tortellini appears to be only available from 1 supermarket (according
@ -143,8 +118,8 @@ to Martin I think) so should we get some here if we are relying so fully on
tortellini for topcamp meals. tortellini for topcamp meals.
</p> </p>
<a name="Other_discussion"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">Other discussion</span></h3> <a name="Other_discussion"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">Other discussion</span></h3>
<p>Small update: I currently have Olly Betts'; cash and carry card (as it's not much use in New Zealand!).<a href="/caving/wiki/User:Ed259" title="User:Ed259">Edvin</a> <p>Small update: I currently have Olly Betts'; cash and carry card (as it's not much use in New Zealand!). Edvin</a>
</p><p>Just got a propper set of scales in a sale, one with a big bucket on top to allow all the stuff for a loaf to be measured in one go. This will make making bread much less messy. --<a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Frank&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Frank (not yet written)">Frank</a> 13:12, 27 June 2008 (BST) </p><p>Just got a propper set of scales in a sale, one with a big bucket on top to allow all the stuff for a loaf to be measured in one go. This will make making bread much less messy. --Frank</a> 13:12, 27 June 2008 (BST)
Ps is the bread maker OK, I can't remember???? Ps is the bread maker OK, I can't remember????
</p> </p>
<a name="Reference_material"></a><h2> <span class="mw-headline">Reference material</span></h2> <a name="Reference_material"></a><h2> <span class="mw-headline">Reference material</span></h2>
@ -161,7 +136,7 @@ Ps is the bread maker OK, I can't remember????
</p><p>There are several categories, and sometimes it makes sense to spread the work over several people: </p><p>There are several categories, and sometimes it makes sense to spread the work over several people:
</p> </p>
<ol><li> Top camp food <ol><li> Top camp food
<ol><li> Ready mixed <a href="http://expo.survex.com/years/2004/recipes.html" class="external text" title="http://expo.survex.com/years/2004/recipes.html" rel="nofollow">dinners</a> based around rice/pasta/TVP &amp; dried vegetables <ol><li> Ready mixed <a href="../2004/recipes.html" class="external text" title="2004/recipes.html" rel="nofollow">dinners</a> based around rice/pasta/TVP &amp; dried vegetables
</li><li> Breakfast supplies such as Oatso simple, tea, musli </li><li> Breakfast supplies such as Oatso simple, tea, musli
</li></ol> </li></ol>
</li><li> Cave food </li><li> Cave food
@ -190,12 +165,12 @@ Ps is the bread maker OK, I can't remember????
</li><li>30g of hot chocolate </li><li>30g of hot chocolate
</li></ul> </li></ul>
<p>On average people spent 44% of the nights at Top Camp (though this ranged from 24% to 58%). <p>On average people spent 44% of the nights at Top Camp (though this ranged from 24% to 58%).
</p><p>--<a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Frank&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Frank (not yet written)">Frank</a> 20:12, 2 June 2008 (BST)=Some helpful facts= </p><p>-- Frank</a> 20:12, 2 June 2008 (BST)=Some helpful facts=
</p> </p>
<ul><li> There is a cash &amp; carry in Salzburg. Hilde might lend you her customer card (needed to use the shop?). <ul><li> There is a cash &amp; carry in Salzburg. Hilde might lend you her customer card (needed to use the shop?).
</li><li> Austrian musli is sold in small, expensive packets in local shops. In the past we have cut cheap Tesco Value Musli with nicer Tesco own brand, but does it make sense to cart such bulky stuff across Europe? </li><li> Austrian musli is sold in small, expensive packets in local shops. In the past we have cut cheap Tesco Value Musli with nicer Tesco own brand, but does it make sense to cart such bulky stuff across Europe?
</li></ul> </li></ul>
<dl><dd><dl><dd>it is pretty cheap in Hofer (the Austrian Aldi) - there is one in Bad Ischl. If you do get it in the UK, Asda Smart Price muesli seems better than Tesco Smart Price. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:JennyB&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:JennyB (not yet written)">JennyB</a> 03:11, 27 June 2008 (BST) <dl><dd><dl><dd>it is pretty cheap in Hofer (the Austrian Aldi) - there is one in Bad Ischl. If you do get it in the UK, Asda Smart Price muesli seems better than Tesco Smart Price. JennyB</a> 03:11, 27 June 2008 (BST)
</dd></dl> </dd></dl>
</dd></dl> </dd></dl>
<ul><li> Booker cash &amp; carry (branches all over the UK, including Cambridge) will let you shop with them (thought they are not open to the public as an ordinary shop) but: <ul><li> Booker cash &amp; carry (branches all over the UK, including Cambridge) will let you shop with them (thought they are not open to the public as an ordinary shop) but:
@ -209,7 +184,7 @@ Ps is the bread maker OK, I can't remember????
</li><li> and most importantly: the essential tubs of dried cheese sauce, dried curry sauce and bolognaise sauce </li><li> and most importantly: the essential tubs of dried cheese sauce, dried curry sauce and bolognaise sauce
</li></ul> </li></ul>
</li><li> Tesco/Lidl own-brand chocolate bars are better value than Booker Mars bars. Similarly, Tesco Value Oats for Flapjack are better value than Booker's Quaker oats. </li><li> Tesco/Lidl own-brand chocolate bars are better value than Booker Mars bars. Similarly, Tesco Value Oats for Flapjack are better value than Booker's Quaker oats.
</li><li> When buying drinking chocolate make sure it's the just add water Cadburys stuff. The add milk stuff is somewhat impratical at top camp, and it dosent work with dried milk.--<a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Frank&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Frank (not yet written)">Frank</a> 20:12, 2 June 2008 (BST) </li><li> When buying drinking chocolate make sure it's the just add water Cadburys stuff. The add milk stuff is somewhat impratical at top camp, and it dosent work with dried milk.-- Frank</a> 20:12, 2 June 2008 (BST)
</li><li> Have a quick scan of the price per Kg in Tesco, some things arn't cheaper when VAT is added on, although they do come in bigger packets and it's convinent. </li><li> Have a quick scan of the price per Kg in Tesco, some things arn't cheaper when VAT is added on, although they do come in bigger packets and it's convinent.
</li><li> You'll probably need transport! </li><li> You'll probably need transport!
</li></ul> </li></ul>
@ -232,7 +207,7 @@ Ps is the bread maker OK, I can't remember????
</li></ul> </li></ul>
<p>Pressed and smoothed into two A4 trays lined with baking parchment, and baked at 150 degrees Centigrade in a fan oven (175 if no fan?) until (approximately) just the edges and rasins turn darker (i.e. about the time it takes to mix the next batch...) <p>Pressed and smoothed into two A4 trays lined with baking parchment, and baked at 150 degrees Centigrade in a fan oven (175 if no fan?) until (approximately) just the edges and rasins turn darker (i.e. about the time it takes to mix the next batch...)
</p> </p>
<dl><dd>Either the 150 degrees is a typo, or our oven is a lot more pathetic than Earl's (which is definitely possible). The last two years we did the flapjack at about Gas mark 7, which is roughly 220 degrees C. Otherwise they took about twice as long. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:JennyB&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:JennyB (not yet written)">JennyB</a> 03:08, 27 June 2008 (BST) <dl><dd>Either the 150 degrees is a typo, or our oven is a lot more pathetic than Earl's (which is definitely possible). The last two years we did the flapjack at about Gas mark 7, which is roughly 220 degrees C. Otherwise they took about twice as long. JennyB</a> 03:08, 27 June 2008 (BST)
</dd></dl> </dd></dl>
<dl><dd><dl><dd>Some tips from an email from Earl..... <dl><dd><dl><dd>Some tips from an email from Earl.....
</dd></dl> </dd></dl>
@ -252,9 +227,9 @@ Ps is the bread maker OK, I can't remember????
<dl><dd><dl><dd>Earl. <dl><dd><dl><dd>Earl.
</dd></dl> </dd></dl>
</dd></dl> </dd></dl>
<dl><dd>We found that dark brown sugar &amp; golden syrup is almost identical to white sugar &amp; a treacle/syrup mix. The later is quite a bit cheaper. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:JennyB&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:JennyB (not yet written)">JennyB</a> 03:08, 27 June 2008 (BST) <dl><dd>We found that dark brown sugar &amp; golden syrup is almost identical to white sugar &amp; a treacle/syrup mix. The later is quite a bit cheaper. JennyB</a> 03:08, 27 June 2008 (BST)
</dd></dl> </dd></dl>
<dl><dd>If you don't have a huge saucepan a wok works well too. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:JennyB&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:JennyB (not yet written)">JennyB</a> 03:08, 27 June 2008 (BST) <dl><dd>If you don't have a huge saucepan a wok works well too. JennyB</a> 03:08, 27 June 2008 (BST)
</dd></dl> </dd></dl>
<a name="Food_in_the_tackle_store"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">Food in the tackle store</span></h3> <a name="Food_in_the_tackle_store"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">Food in the tackle store</span></h3>
<p>Mostly out of date, but probably ok&nbsp;:) <p>Mostly out of date, but probably ok&nbsp;:)
@ -292,55 +267,6 @@ Expensive parser function count: 0/100
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<p>This page was an updated kitlist, which has now been <p>This page was an updated kitlist, which has now been
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@ -123,31 +100,7 @@ Expensive parser function count: 0/100
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</li><li>Gear Order - Serena Povia </li><li>Gear Order - Serena Povia
</li></ul> </li></ul>
<p><br /> <p><br />
It looks like food will be a team effort this year, as no-one wants to take it on alone. <a href="/caving/wiki/Expo_2008/Insurance" title="Expo 2008/Insurance">Insurance</a> will also be organised individually. It looks like food will be a team effort this year, as no-one wants to take it on alone. Insurance</a> will also be organised individually.
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<p>There has been talk of revisiting areas of KH this year with a view to ultimately getting a connection with 204 via the stuff that was discovered beyond the end of Razordance in 2007. Without committing to anything I thought it would be a good idea to set up a page discussing logistics of this and how it might potentially work so that people can more easily decide if it's a good idea or not. <a href="/caving/wiki/User:Ed259" title="User:Ed259">Edvin</a>. <p>There has been talk of revisiting areas of KH this year with a view to ultimately getting a connection with 204 via the stuff that was discovered beyond the end of Razordance in 2007. Without committing to anything I thought it would be a good idea to set up a page discussing logistics of this and how it might potentially work so that people can more easily decide if it's a good idea or not. Edvin.
</p><p>Please add comments in the categories below (or add categories for what I've forgotten) - this especially applies to any lags old enough to have been down KH before&nbsp;:) </p><p>Please add comments in the categories below (or add categories for what I've forgotten) - this especially applies to any lags old enough to have been down KH before&nbsp;:)
</p> </p>
<table id="toc" class="toc" summary="Contents"><tr><td><div id="toctitle"><h2>Contents</h2></div> <table id="toc" class="toc" summary="Contents"><tr><td><div id="toctitle"><h2>Contents</h2></div>
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<li class="toclevel-1"><a href="#Rope"><span class="tocnumber">4</span> <span class="toctext">Rope</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1"><a href="#Rope"><span class="tocnumber">4</span> <span class="toctext">Rope</span></a></li>
<li class="toclevel-1"><a href="#Keenness_Levels"><span class="tocnumber">5</span> <span class="toctext">Keenness Levels</span></a></li> <li class="toclevel-1"><a href="#Keenness_Levels"><span class="tocnumber">5</span> <span class="toctext">Keenness Levels</span></a></li>
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<a name="Where_in_KH"></a><h2> <span class="mw-headline">Where in KH</span></h2> <a name="Where_in_KH"></a><h2> <span class="mw-headline">Where in KH</span></h2>
<p>Which part of KH would we be looking at? (As I understand it Midnight in Moscow is closest but has fewer leads left). <p>Which part of KH would we be looking at? (As I understand it Midnight in Moscow is closest but has fewer leads left).
</p> </p>
<a name="Siberia_.2F_Midnight_in_Moscow"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">Siberia / Midnight in Moscow</span></h3> <a name="Siberia_.2F_Midnight_in_Moscow"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">Siberia / Midnight in Moscow</span></h3>
<p>Other than the dig at the very bottom, I can't think of much to <p>Other than the dig at the very bottom, I can't think of much to
do in Siberia. The <a href="http://expo.survex.com/1623/161/sibria.htm#siberia" class="external text" title="http://expo.survex.com/1623/161/sibria.htm#siberia" rel="nofollow">description</a> mentions at least one lead on the do in Siberia. The <a href="../../1623/161/sibria.htm#siberia" class="external text" title="../../1623/161/sibria.htm#siberia" rel="nofollow">description</a> mentions at least one lead on the
way down (but not where I remember there being one), and the lead way down (but not where I remember there being one), and the lead
I can remember on the way down is a body-sized tube not far below I can remember on the way down is a body-sized tube not far below
SEP. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 05:41, 28 May 2008 (BST) SEP. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 05:41, 28 May 2008 (BST)
</p><p>Well, the leads list largely agrees with my recollection, but there are quite a lot of 'C' leads I'd forgotten about, especially in Fuzzy Logic, where there's also a surprising 'A' lead that apparently hasn't been done. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 02:37, 29 May 2008 (BST) </p><p>Well, the leads list largely agrees with my recollection, but there are quite a lot of 'C' leads I'd forgotten about, especially in Fuzzy Logic, where there's also a surprising 'A' lead that apparently hasn't been done. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 02:37, 29 May 2008 (BST)
</p> </p>
<a name="Documented_Leads"></a><h4> <span class="mw-headline">Documented Leads</span></h4> <a name="Documented_Leads"></a><h4> <span class="mw-headline">Documented Leads</span></h4>
<p>All leads marked 'Sib' or 'Fuz' in <a href="http://expo.survex.com/1623/161/qmtodo.htm" class="external text" title="http://expo.survex.com/1623/161/qmtodo.htm" rel="nofollow">161 outstanding QMlist after 1997</a>. [C1997-161-26 A] removed from the list as it was the main way on and was pushed the following year. According to the description there are no leads (other than digs and avens) below this point, which agrees with my memory. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 02:37, 29 May 2008 (BST) <p>All leads marked 'Sib' or 'Fuz' in <a href="../../1623/161/qmtodo.htm" class="external text" title="../../1623/161/qmtodo.htm" rel="nofollow">161 outstanding QMlist after 1997</a>. [C1997-161-26 A] removed from the list as it was the main way on and was pushed the following year. According to the description there are no leads (other than digs and avens) below this point, which agrees with my memory. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 02:37, 29 May 2008 (BST)
</p> </p>
<dl><dt>C1997-161-21 B <dl><dt>C1997-161-21 B
</dt><dd>Sib: Hole below pendule at foot of Vom pitch is given as "undescended" (Wookey reckons it can be seen to choke [I reckon so too, although it's in a very good location for a connection if it went <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 02:37, 29 May 2008 (BST)]) [Burblmaze.1] </dt><dd>Sib: Hole below pendule at foot of Vom pitch is given as "undescended" (Wookey reckons it can be seen to choke [I reckon so too, although it's in a very good location for a connection if it went Duncan Collis 02:37, 29 May 2008 (BST)]) [Burblmaze.1]
</dd><dt>C1997-161-22 C </dd><dt>C1997-161-22 C
</dt><dd>Sib: hole in floor 40m past 'Not this Junction' [sep.teama.9] </dt><dd>Sib: hole in floor 40m past 'Not this Junction' [sep.teama.9]
</dd><dt>C1997-161-23&nbsp;? </dd><dt>C1997-161-23&nbsp;?
@ -188,11 +162,11 @@ SEP. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&am
</dd></dl> </dd></dl>
<a name="The_Far_End"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">The Far End</span></h3> <a name="The_Far_End"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">The Far End</span></h3>
<p>I've never been to The Far End, but it does sound rather good. <p>I've never been to The Far End, but it does sound rather good.
Check out <a href="http://expo.survex.com/1623/161/farnth.htm" class="external text" title="http://expo.survex.com/1623/161/farnth.htm" rel="nofollow">the description</a>. Strong draughts and several big undescended pitches! <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 05:41, 28 May 2008 (BST) Check out <a href="../../1623/161/farnth.htm" class="external text" title="../../1623/161/farnth.htm" rel="nofollow">the description</a>. Strong draughts and several big undescended pitches! <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 05:41, 28 May 2008 (BST)
</p><p>Don't be put off by the name <i>The Far End</i>; it's relatively straightforward caving to get there (certainly <i>much</i> easier than most of the trips in 204 last year), the distance involved is comparable to visiting the furthest leads in Tunnockschacht, and if the 161d entrance is used the deepest point on the way to The Far End is only about 120m down and the depth to the likely connection area of 204 is under 350m. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 10:10, 8 June 2008 (BST) </p><p>Don't be put off by the name <i>The Far End</i>; it's relatively straightforward caving to get there (certainly <i>much</i> easier than most of the trips in 204 last year), the distance involved is comparable to visiting the furthest leads in Tunnockschacht, and if the 161d entrance is used the deepest point on the way to The Far End is only about 120m down and the depth to the likely connection area of 204 is under 350m. Duncan Collis 10:10, 8 June 2008 (BST)
</p> </p>
<a name="Documented_Leads_2"></a><h4> <span class="mw-headline">Documented Leads</span></h4> <a name="Documented_Leads_2"></a><h4> <span class="mw-headline">Documented Leads</span></h4>
<p>All leads marked 'Far' in <a href="http://expo.survex.com/1623/161/qmtodo.htm" class="external text" title="http://expo.survex.com/1623/161/qmtodo.htm" rel="nofollow">161 outstanding QMlist after 1997</a> <p>All leads marked 'Far' in <a href="../../1623/161/qmtodo.htm" class="external text" title="../../1623/161/qmtodo.htm" rel="nofollow">161 outstanding QMlist after 1997</a>
</p> </p>
<dl><dt>C1993-161-01 A <dl><dt>C1993-161-01 A
</dt><dd>Far: Pitch in Even Further beyond Weasel Pit [FurtCham.5] </dt><dd>Far: Pitch in Even Further beyond Weasel Pit [FurtCham.5]
@ -227,7 +201,7 @@ Check out <a href="http://expo.survex.com/1623/161/farnth.htm" class="external t
<p>Which entrance would we use? 161a or 161d <p>Which entrance would we use? 161a or 161d
</p> </p>
<a name="161a"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">161a</span></h3> <a name="161a"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">161a</span></h3>
<p><b>Routefinding</b> My memory of going in 161a is a little hazy, as it was my first expo, but I think there's a bit more routefinding that way (although the entrance itself is perhaps a little easier to find). <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 06:34, 28 May 2008 (BST) <p><b>Routefinding</b> My memory of going in 161a is a little hazy, as it was my first expo, but I think there's a bit more routefinding that way (although the entrance itself is perhaps a little easier to find). Duncan Collis 06:34, 28 May 2008 (BST)
</p><p><b>Rigging</b> 161a requires considerably more rigging to reach Knossos (where the routes converge): <b>NB</b> These are pitch lengths, not rope lengths. </p><p><b>Rigging</b> 161a requires considerably more rigging to reach Knossos (where the routes converge): <b>NB</b> These are pitch lengths, not rope lengths.
</p> </p>
<table class="wikitable"> <table class="wikitable">
@ -269,7 +243,7 @@ Check out <a href="http://expo.survex.com/1623/161/farnth.htm" class="external t
</td><td align="right"> 30m </td><td align="right"> 30m
</td></tr></table> </td></tr></table>
<p>Clearly more tackle would be consumed and more time would be needed for rigging in and derigging if 'a' were used. <p>Clearly more tackle would be consumed and more time would be needed for rigging in and derigging if 'a' were used.
</p><p><b>Travel Time</b> A bit counterintuitively, it may actually be faster to go in and out using 'a' - in the 1993 log Wook reports getting <a href="http://expo.survex.com/years/1993/log.htm#id1993-161-21" class="external text" title="http://expo.survex.com/years/1993/log.htm#id1993-161-21" rel="nofollow">down to Knossos in 25 minutes</a>. Not sure about typical times required to climb out. Getting to and from 'a' on the surface (from just about anywhere) takes less time than for 'd'. </p><p><b>Travel Time</b> A bit counterintuitively, it may actually be faster to go in and out using 'a' - in the 1993 log Wook reports getting <a href="../1993/log.htm#id1993-161-21" class="external text" title="../1993/log.htm#id1993-161-21" rel="nofollow">down to Knossos in 25 minutes</a>. Not sure about typical times required to climb out. Getting to and from 'a' on the surface (from just about anywhere) takes less time than for 'd'.
</p> </p>
<a name="161d"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">161d</span></h3> <a name="161d"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">161d</span></h3>
<p><b>Routefinding</b> In 161d there's a bit of piddling around near the entrance, <p><b>Routefinding</b> In 161d there's a bit of piddling around near the entrance,
@ -286,16 +260,16 @@ but nothing too confusing.
<td> Minoan Surprise <td> Minoan Surprise
</td><td align="right"> ~15m </td><td align="right"> ~15m
</td></tr></table> </td></tr></table>
<p>My recollection is that this pitch requires a rather longer rope than the pitch length suggests, as the rigging begins at the head of a rubble slope down to a traverse onto the pitch. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 08:37, 1 June 2008 (BST) <p>My recollection is that this pitch requires a rather longer rope than the pitch length suggests, as the rigging begins at the head of a rubble slope down to a traverse onto the pitch. Duncan Collis 08:37, 1 June 2008 (BST)
</p><p>The modest tackle requirements and rigging/derigging burden favour 'd' if only a small number of people are interested in trying for the connection. </p><p>The modest tackle requirements and rigging/derigging burden favour 'd' if only a small number of people are interested in trying for the connection.
</p><p><b>Travel Time</b> I seem to remember it taking around 3/4 of an hour from 'd', mostly walking along big passage. In and out take about the same length of time, as it's mostly horizontal. You have to take into account the extra </p><p><b>Travel Time</b> I seem to remember it taking around 3/4 of an hour from 'd', mostly walking along big passage. In and out take about the same length of time, as it's mostly horizontal. You have to take into account the extra
time spent getting to the 'd' entrance on the surface. time spent getting to the 'd' entrance on the surface.
</p> </p>
<a name="Camping"></a><h2> <span class="mw-headline">Camping</span></h2> <a name="Camping"></a><h2> <span class="mw-headline">Camping</span></h2>
<p>Would we use the Stone Bridge or the original top camp near KH? Is an underground camp necessary? <p>Would we use the Stone Bridge or the original top camp near KH? Is an underground camp necessary?
</p><p>Another question: would we need more cairns to mark the routes to the entrance(s) - are there any left over from last year? <a href="/caving/wiki/User:Ed259" title="User:Ed259">Edvin</a> </p><p>Another question: would we need more cairns to mark the routes to the entrance(s) - are there any left over from last year? Edvin
</p> </p>
<dl><dd> Yes you will need cairns, although probably not as many as are used on the path to 204 - although there are a few places where it's easy to loose the path there are several sections where once you're on the path it's reasonably obvious where to go. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 06:00, 30 May 2008 (BST) <dl><dd> Yes you will need cairns, although probably not as many as are used on the path to 204 - although there are a few places where it's easy to loose the path there are several sections where once you're on the path it's reasonably obvious where to go. Duncan Collis 06:00, 30 May 2008 (BST)
</dd></dl> </dd></dl>
<a name="Surface_Camp"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">Surface Camp</span></h3> <a name="Surface_Camp"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">Surface Camp</span></h3>
<p>There are essentially three options: <p>There are essentially three options:
@ -304,20 +278,20 @@ time spent getting to the 'd' entrance on the surface.
<p>Staying at the existing bivvy at 204 would probably be simplest in terms of organisation and call-outs, although it would require extra walking compared with the other options. <p>Staying at the existing bivvy at 204 would probably be simplest in terms of organisation and call-outs, although it would require extra walking compared with the other options.
</p><p>Walking to 161a from 204 via the top of the Hint. Schwarzmooskogel is not too bad; there's a pretty easy route the whole way. Not sure if there's a good route from 204 to 161d round the east flank of the HSK. </p><p>Walking to 161a from 204 via the top of the Hint. Schwarzmooskogel is not too bad; there's a pretty easy route the whole way. Not sure if there's a good route from 204 to 161d round the east flank of the HSK.
</p><p>Equipment earmarked for 161 could of course be carried directly to the entrance from the car park. </p><p>Equipment earmarked for 161 could of course be carried directly to the entrance from the car park.
<a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 01:30, 29 May 2008 (BST) Duncan Collis</a> 01:30, 29 May 2008 (BST)
</p><p>Another advantage of staying at the 204 bivvy: people would have a choice of whether to do KH or Tunnocks/Hauchhohle. For example if I was going down KH I might want to alternate longer trips in KH with shorter trips in Tunnockschacht. <a href="/caving/wiki/User:Ed259" title="User:Ed259">Edvin</a> </p><p>Another advantage of staying at the 204 bivvy: people would have a choice of whether to do KH or Tunnocks/Hauchhohle. For example if I was going down KH I might want to alternate longer trips in KH with shorter trips in Tunnockschacht. Edvin</a>
</p> </p>
<dl><dd>In practice alternating trips like that are unlikely to happen much unless you <i>really</i> enjoy carrying all your caving kit back and forth across the Hinter, or make an arrangement with someone the same size as you to share kit. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 06:08, 3 June 2008 (BST) <dl><dd>In practice alternating trips like that are unlikely to happen much unless you <i>really</i> enjoy carrying all your caving kit back and forth across the Hinter, or make an arrangement with someone the same size as you to share kit. Duncan Collis</a> 06:08, 3 June 2008 (BST)
</dd></dl> </dd></dl>
<a name="Top_camp"></a><h4> <span class="mw-headline">Top camp</span></h4> <a name="Top_camp"></a><h4> <span class="mw-headline">Top camp</span></h4>
<p>Setting up camp at the old Top Camp near the col would slightly shorten the walk to the cave and greatly shorten the walk from the car park. However, it would make for more complicated call-out arrangements. <p>Setting up camp at the old Top Camp near the col would slightly shorten the walk to the cave and greatly shorten the walk from the car park. However, it would make for more complicated call-out arrangements.
</p><p>Gear could be stashed at Top Camp initially and then gradually moved to 204 or 161 as needed; actually that's true whichever camp is used for 161. </p><p>Gear could be stashed at Top Camp initially and then gradually moved to 204 or 161 as needed; actually that's true whichever camp is used for 161.
<a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 01:30, 29 May 2008 (BST)] Duncan Collis</a> 01:30, 29 May 2008 (BST)]
</p> </p>
<a name="Bivvy_near_161"></a><h4> <span class="mw-headline">Bivvy near 161</span></h4> <a name="Bivvy_near_161"></a><h4> <span class="mw-headline">Bivvy near 161</span></h4>
<p>It's long been suggested that it might be possible to bivvy or camp near 161d or 161a, although nobody has yet tried it. If a suitable site can be found, this option would minimise the amount of time wasted walking between camp and cave. Call-out arrangements would be more complicated than using the 204 bivvy, and possibly more complicated than using Top Camp if the new bivvy site doesn't have mobile coverage. <p>It's long been suggested that it might be possible to bivvy or camp near 161d or 161a, although nobody has yet tried it. If a suitable site can be found, this option would minimise the amount of time wasted walking between camp and cave. Call-out arrangements would be more complicated than using the 204 bivvy, and possibly more complicated than using Top Camp if the new bivvy site doesn't have mobile coverage.
<a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 01:30, 29 May 2008 (BST) Duncan Collis</a> 01:30, 29 May 2008 (BST)
</p><p>Right by the entrance of 161d there is mobile coverage (better reception than the 76 bivvy in fact). I dont know about nearer 161a though. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:JennyB&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:JennyB (not yet written)">JennyB</a> 01:25, 4 June 2008 (BST) </p><p>Right by the entrance of 161d there is mobile coverage (better reception than the 76 bivvy in fact). I dont know about nearer 161a though. JennyB</a> 01:25, 4 June 2008 (BST)
</p> </p>
<a name="Underground_Camp"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">Underground Camp</span></h3> <a name="Underground_Camp"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">Underground Camp</span></h3>
<p>An underground camp shouldn't be necessary to push for the connection. Getting to the leads in KH oughtn't to be too time consuming, and there's 'only' a little over 200m to drop to make the connection. However, if the connection is made with pushing time left on expo, it <i>may</i> be worth considering setting up a camp in the horizontal stuff at the bottom to facilitate thorough exploration. Whether this is worth doing will depend on several things, including: <p>An underground camp shouldn't be necessary to push for the connection. Getting to the leads in KH oughtn't to be too time consuming, and there's 'only' a little over 200m to drop to make the connection. However, if the connection is made with pushing time left on expo, it <i>may</i> be worth considering setting up a camp in the horizontal stuff at the bottom to facilitate thorough exploration. Whether this is worth doing will depend on several things, including:
@ -328,7 +302,7 @@ time spent getting to the 'd' entrance on the surface.
</li><li>How many people are interested </li><li>How many people are interested
</li><li>What resources are available for camping </li><li>What resources are available for camping
</li></ul> </li></ul>
<p><a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 06:46, 28 May 2008 (BST) <p> Duncan Collis</a> 06:46, 28 May 2008 (BST)
</p> </p>
<a name="Rope"></a><h2> <span class="mw-headline">Rope</span></h2> <a name="Rope"></a><h2> <span class="mw-headline">Rope</span></h2>
<p>How much rope is required and do we have enough for this? <p>How much rope is required and do we have enough for this?
@ -399,13 +373,13 @@ time spent getting to the 'd' entrance on the surface.
</td><td> </td><td>
</td><td> </td><td>
</td></tr></table> </td></tr></table>
<p>Info for this table from <a href="http://expo.survex.com/1623/161/farnth.htm" class="external text" title="http://expo.survex.com/1623/161/farnth.htm" rel="nofollow">Mainline to Far North description</a>, <a href="http://expo.survex.com/1623/161/sibria.htm#yapate" class="external text" title="http://expo.survex.com/1623/161/sibria.htm#yapate" rel="nofollow">Mainline to Siberia description</a> and <a href="http://expo.survex.com/fixaid.htm" class="external text" title="http://expo.survex.com/fixaid.htm" rel="nofollow">Fixed Aids in CUCC Caves</a>, plus a little from my own memory. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 07:21, 28 May 2008 (BST) <p>Info for this table from <a href="../../1623/161/farnth.htm" class="external text" title="../../1623/161/farnth.htm" rel="nofollow">Mainline to Far North description</a>, <a href="../../1623/161/sibria.htm#yapate" class="external text" title="../../1623/161/sibria.htm#yapate" rel="nofollow">Mainline to Siberia description</a> and <a href="../../fixaid.htm" class="external text" title="fixaid.htm" rel="nofollow">Fixed Aids in CUCC Caves</a>, plus a little from my own memory. Duncan Collis</a> 07:21, 28 May 2008 (BST)
</p><p>Note that [1],[2] and [3] are alternatives - only one of them needs to be rigged, although [3] will need to be rigged temporarily in order to rig [1] or [2] </p><p>Note that [1],[2] and [3] are alternatives - only one of them needs to be rigged, although [3] will need to be rigged temporarily in order to rig [1] or [2]
</p><p>It would be a <i>very good idea</i> to install stainless steel anchors and maillons on the up-pitches at Staircase 36 and strange Upfall. Frank has offered to donate suitable hanger/anchor assemblies for this purpose. These should be installed very carefully by somebody who isn't a muppet - they're expensive anchors and should last for well beyond our lifetimes, so don't invite Mr. Cockup on the trip. </p><p>It would be a <i>very good idea</i> to install stainless steel anchors and maillons on the up-pitches at Staircase 36 and strange Upfall. Frank has offered to donate suitable hanger/anchor assemblies for this purpose. These should be installed very carefully by somebody who isn't a muppet - they're expensive anchors and should last for well beyond our lifetimes, so don't invite Mr. Cockup on the trip.
</p> </p>
<a name="Keenness_Levels"></a><h2> <span class="mw-headline">Keenness Levels</span></h2> <a name="Keenness_Levels"></a><h2> <span class="mw-headline">Keenness Levels</span></h2>
<p>So who from this year's expo is keen on coming down KH? This will ultimately determine whether it's worth pursuing this year or waiting until next year. I'm guessing we need at least 6-7 people? <a href="/caving/wiki/User:Ed259" title="User:Ed259">Edvin</a> <p>So who from this year's expo is keen on coming down KH? This will ultimately determine whether it's worth pursuing this year or waiting until next year. I'm guessing we need at least 6-7 people? Edvin</a>
</p><p>Even if you don't manage to assemble a team that wants to push for the connection, it would be well worth a couple of people going in (via 161d) and going on a recce trip to The Far End to get a first-hand idea of the difficulty level and how good some of the leads look. It would also be a good opportunity to install that stainless. You would then be 'primed' for a push in 2009. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 01:18, 14 June 2008 (BST) </p><p>Even if you don't manage to assemble a team that wants to push for the connection, it would be well worth a couple of people going in (via 161d) and going on a recce trip to The Far End to get a first-hand idea of the difficulty level and how good some of the leads look. It would also be a good opportunity to install that stainless. You would then be 'primed' for a push in 2009. Duncan Collis</a> 01:18, 14 June 2008 (BST)
</p><p>1. Edvin <br /> </p><p>1. Edvin <br />
2.&nbsp;?<br /> 2.&nbsp;?<br />
3.&nbsp;?<br /> 3.&nbsp;?<br />
@ -422,55 +396,6 @@ Expensive parser function count: 0/100
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<a name="Cordura_Suits"></a><h2> <span class="mw-headline">Cordura Suits</span></h2> <a name="Cordura_Suits"></a><h2> <span class="mw-headline">Cordura Suits</span></h2>
<p>I intend to fix my cordura suit and try to get it to last another expo. Could I have some advice / discussion on how this is best done, and where the necessary patching stuff can be bought in Cambridge? -<a href="/caving/wiki/User:Aaron" title="User:Aaron">Aaron</a> 22:20, 1 June 2008 (BST) <p>I intend to fix my cordura suit and try to get it to last another expo. Could I have some advice / discussion on how this is best done, and where the necessary patching stuff can be bought in Cambridge? - Aaron</a> 22:20, 1 June 2008 (BST)
</p><p>I did <b>a lot</b> of oversuit patching last year - I started off with a brand-new Warmbac suit, and Razordance very rapidly wore it out; the cordura wore thin and then would catch and tear. There are a couple of places where (strangely) the cordura has completely gone, leaving only the transparent waterproof membrane on the inside. Anyway, I digress... <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 08:16, 2 June 2008 (BST) </p><p>I did <b>a lot</b> of oversuit patching last year - I started off with a brand-new Warmbac suit, and Razordance very rapidly wore it out; the cordura wore thin and then would catch and tear. There are a couple of places where (strangely) the cordura has completely gone, leaving only the transparent waterproof membrane on the inside. Anyway, I digress... Duncan Collis</a> 08:16, 2 June 2008 (BST)
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<a name="Patches"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">Patches</span></h3> <a name="Patches"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">Patches</span></h3>
<p>Usually it's best to patch, even if you're just fixing a tear that could be sewn back together. Using a patch moves your stitching further from the damaged bit, so you'll probably be sewing through less worn material, and also spreads out the load on the repair. It's best to make patches oval, or at least to give them rounded corners so they have less of a tendency to lift. If you've got an old suit, the least worn bits of it can be used for patching material. If not, a fair bit of good material for patching can be harvested from your current suit by removing or shortening the inside pocket, or by slightly shortening the legs. Before sewing or gluing the patch on, wash the oversuit (this is easily done by wearing it in the river and wriggling around on the rocks) and dry it. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 08:16, 2 June 2008 (BST) <p>Usually it's best to patch, even if you're just fixing a tear that could be sewn back together. Using a patch moves your stitching further from the damaged bit, so you'll probably be sewing through less worn material, and also spreads out the load on the repair. It's best to make patches oval, or at least to give them rounded corners so they have less of a tendency to lift. If you've got an old suit, the least worn bits of it can be used for patching material. If not, a fair bit of good material for patching can be harvested from your current suit by removing or shortening the inside pocket, or by slightly shortening the legs. Before sewing or gluing the patch on, wash the oversuit (this is easily done by wearing it in the river and wriggling around on the rocks) and dry it. Duncan Collis</a> 08:16, 2 June 2008 (BST)
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<a name="Gluing"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">Gluing</span></h3> <a name="Gluing"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">Gluing</span></h3>
<p>I tried using glue (bought in Bad Aussee, but I can't remember what sort it was - I think Olly B reccommended it), which on its own wasn't hugely successful. Unless the amount of glue was just right and the patch was stuck on after just the right amount of drying time, it didn't stick very well. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 08:16, 2 June 2008 (BST) <p>I tried using glue (bought in Bad Aussee, but I can't remember what sort it was - I think Olly B reccommended it), which on its own wasn't hugely successful. Unless the amount of glue was just right and the patch was stuck on after just the right amount of drying time, it didn't stick very well. Duncan Collis</a> 08:16, 2 June 2008 (BST)
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<a name="Sewing"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">Sewing</span></h3> <a name="Sewing"></a><h3> <span class="mw-headline">Sewing</span></h3>
<p>Frank brought along some vicious sailmaker's needles, a couple of sailors' pads and a reel of "Whiplash 2000" fishing braid. This was excellent for sewing on patches. To hold the patch in place, just gaffer it on and then stitch through the patch, suit and gaffer. I tried gluing first and then patching, but the glue made it harder to push the needle through and didn't really seem to be necessary when using Frank's indestructible fishing braid as thread. Smearing glue over the stitching seems to be worthwhile, although the best thing to use for that is probably Aquasure. <a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 08:16, 2 June 2008 (BST) <p>Frank brought along some vicious sailmaker's needles, a couple of sailors' pads and a reel of "Whiplash 2000" fishing braid. This was excellent for sewing on patches. To hold the patch in place, just gaffer it on and then stitch through the patch, suit and gaffer. I tried gluing first and then patching, but the glue made it harder to push the needle through and didn't really seem to be necessary when using Frank's indestructible fishing braid as thread. Smearing glue over the stitching seems to be worthwhile, although the best thing to use for that is probably Aquasure. Duncan Collis</a> 08:16, 2 June 2008 (BST)
</p> </p>
<ul><li>The palm and needles are sold in ships chandlers and any sailing shop, they usually come in kits and dont cost much. You only need a few needles. <ul><li>The palm and needles are sold in ships chandlers and any sailing shop, they usually come in kits and dont cost much. You only need a few needles.
</li><li>The fising braid that i've had sucess with is sold in most large fising shops, basically get the strongest coated kevlar braid stuff. Unfatunatly the stuff i got comes in 500m reels (£20), but I'm sure there will be simlar stuff. Don't get monofibre because it dosent lie flat and the bits that stick up wear off quickly. </li><li>The fising braid that i've had sucess with is sold in most large fising shops, basically get the strongest coated kevlar braid stuff. Unfatunatly the stuff i got comes in 500m reels (£20), but I'm sure there will be simlar stuff. Don't get monofibre because it dosent lie flat and the bits that stick up wear off quickly.
</li><li>I'll bring my sewing kit to expo-training or the Yorks trip 7-8/6/08 if I can make it. Whoever needs it in Cambs can then borrow it. --<a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Frank&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Frank (not yet written)">Frank</a> 19:26, 2 June 2008 (BST) </li><li>I'll bring my sewing kit to expo-training or the Yorks trip 7-8/6/08 if I can make it. Whoever needs it in Cambs can then borrow it. -- Frank</a> 19:26, 2 June 2008 (BST)
</li><li>Incidentally when your pushing the needle through the fabric just as the widest part of the needle passes through, the tip of the needle can easily move accross and cut a really deep gash in your hand. You won't do it twice! and you probably wont be able to finish your oversuit for a few days either.--<a href="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Frank&amp;action=edit&amp;redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Frank (not yet written)">Frank</a> 19:26, 2 June 2008 (BST) </li><li>Incidentally when your pushing the needle through the fabric just as the widest part of the needle passes through, the tip of the needle can easily move accross and cut a really deep gash in your hand. You won't do it twice! and you probably wont be able to finish your oversuit for a few days either.-- Frank</a> 19:26, 2 June 2008 (BST)
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