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<title>Expo 2008/KH Planning - Cambridge University Caving Club</title>
<p>There has been talk of revisiting areas of KH this year with a view to ultimately getting a connection with 204 via the stuff that was discovered beyond the end of Razordance in 2007. Without committing to anything I thought it would be a good idea to set up a page discussing logistics of this and how it might potentially work so that people can more easily decide if it's a good idea or not. <ahref="/caving/wiki/User:Ed259"title="User:Ed259">Edvin</a>.
</p><p>Please add comments in the categories below (or add categories for what I've forgotten) - this especially applies to any lags old enough to have been down KH before :)
<liclass="toclevel-1"><ahref="#Where_in_KH"><spanclass="tocnumber">1</span><spanclass="toctext">Where in KH</span></a>
<ul>
<liclass="toclevel-2"><ahref="#Siberia_.2F_Midnight_in_Moscow"><spanclass="tocnumber">1.1</span><spanclass="toctext">Siberia / Midnight in Moscow</span></a>
do in Siberia. The <ahref="http://cucc.survex.com/expo/1623/161/sibria.htm#siberia"class="external text"title="http://cucc.survex.com/expo/1623/161/sibria.htm#siberia"rel="nofollow">description</a> mentions at least one lead on the
</p><p>Well, the leads list largely agrees with my recollection, but there are quite a lot of 'C' leads I'd forgotten about, especially in Fuzzy Logic, where there's also a surprising 'A' lead that apparently hasn't been done. <ahref="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&action=edit&redlink=1"class="new"title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 02:37, 29 May 2008 (BST)
<p>All leads marked 'Sib' or 'Fuz' in <ahref="http://cucc.survex.com/expo/1623/161/qmtodo.htm"class="external text"title="http://cucc.survex.com/expo/1623/161/qmtodo.htm"rel="nofollow">161 outstanding QMlist after 1997</a>. [C1997-161-26 A] removed from the list as it was the main way on and was pushed the following year. According to the description there are no leads (other than digs and avens) below this point, which agrees with my memory. <ahref="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&action=edit&redlink=1"class="new"title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 02:37, 29 May 2008 (BST)
</dt><dd>Sib: Hole below pendule at foot of Vom pitch is given as "undescended" (Wookey reckons it can be seen to choke [I reckon so too, although it's in a very good location for a connection if it went <ahref="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&action=edit&redlink=1"class="new"title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 02:37, 29 May 2008 (BST)]) [Burblmaze.1]
</dd><dt>C1997-161-22 C
</dt><dd>Sib: hole in floor 40m past 'Not this Junction' [sep.teama.9]
</dd><dt>C1997-161-23 ?
</dt><dd>Sib: passage left in 1st right hand branch in Greengables [sep.greengables.2]
</dd><dt>C1997-161-24 ?
</dt><dd>Sib: passage right in 1st right hand branch in Greengables [sep.greengables.2]
</dd><dt>C1997-161-25 V
</dt><dd>Sib: 6m climb 2nd right hand passage in Greengables [sep.greengables.2]
</dd><dt>C1997-161-28 ?
</dt><dd>Sib: crawl left across 18m pitch below Somebody Else's Problem [sep.part2.14]
</dd><dt>C1997-161-29 ?
</dt><dd>Sib: crawl right across 18m pitch below SEP [sep.part2.14]
</dd><dt>C1997-161-30 ?
</dt><dd>Sib: passage left in left hand branch past Greengables [sep.teama.13]
</dd><dt>C1997-161-31 B
</dt><dd>Sib: passage right hand wall 20m before SEP pitch [sep.teama.14]
</dd><dt>C1997-161-32 C
</dt><dd>Sib: another passage right hand wall 20m before SEP pitch [sep.teama.14]
</dd><dt>C1998-161-01 A
</dt><dd>Fuz: undescended pitch traversed past before slope to Paradox Rift.
</dd><dt>C1998-161-02 X
</dt><dd>Fuz: large dripping aven soaring above Paradox Rift
</dd><dt>C1998-161-03 C
</dt><dd>Fuz: unpushed low wet way from 1st chamber below pitches
</dd><dt>C1998-161-04 V
</dt><dd>Fuz: probably easily scalable 15m aven to obvious passage and echo in Psycho Street.
</dd><dt>C1998-161-05 C
</dt><dd>Fuz: steeply ascending tube over calcited pools in Bearbum Passage.
</dd><dt>C1998-161-06 C
</dt><dd>Fuz: very tight rift towards booming echo beyond crawls in Bearbum Passage.
</dd></dl>
<aname="The_Far_End"></a><h3><spanclass="mw-headline">The Far End</span></h3>
<p>I've never been to The Far End, but it does sound rather good.
Check out <ahref="http://cucc.survex.com/expo/1623/161/farnth.htm"class="external text"title="http://cucc.survex.com/expo/1623/161/farnth.htm"rel="nofollow">the description</a>. Strong draughts and several big undescended pitches! <ahref="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&action=edit&redlink=1"class="new"title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 05:41, 28 May 2008 (BST)
</p><p>Don't be put off by the name <i>The Far End</i>; it's relatively straightforward caving to get there (certainly <i>much</i> easier than most of the trips in 204 last year), the distance involved is comparable to visiting the furthest leads in Tunnockschacht, and if the 161d entrance is used the deepest point on the way to The Far End is only about 120m down and the depth to the likely connection area of 204 is under 350m. <ahref="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&action=edit&redlink=1"class="new"title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 10:10, 8 June 2008 (BST)
<p><b>Routefinding</b> My memory of going in 161a is a little hazy, as it was my first expo, but I think there's a bit more routefinding that way (although the entrance itself is perhaps a little easier to find). <ahref="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&action=edit&redlink=1"class="new"title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 06:34, 28 May 2008 (BST)
</p><p><b>Rigging</b> 161a requires considerably more rigging to reach Knossos (where the routes converge): <b>NB</b> These are pitch lengths, not rope lengths.
</p>
<tableclass="wikitable">
<tr>
<th> Pitch
</th><thalign="right"> Length
</th></tr>
<tr>
<td> Entrance
</td><tdalign="right"> 37m
</td></tr>
<tr>
<td> Automatic Doors
</td><tdalign="right"> 12m
</td></tr>
<tr>
<td> S'not
</td><tdalign="right"> 35m
</td></tr>
<tr>
<td> Garden Party
</td><td> (traverse)
</td></tr>
<tr>
<td> Chunnel
</td><tdalign="right"> 7m
</td></tr>
<tr>
<td> Bungalow
</td><tdalign="right"> 13m
</td></tr>
<tr>
<td> Poxy
</td><tdalign="right"> 7m
</td></tr>
<tr>
<td> Knossos
</td><tdalign="right"> 30m
</td></tr></table>
<p>Clearly more tackle would be consumed and more time would be needed for rigging in and derigging if 'a' were used.
</p><p><b>Travel Time</b> A bit counterintuitively, it may actually be faster to go in and out using 'a' - in the 1993 log Wook reports getting <ahref="http://cucc.survex.com/expo/years/1993/log.htm#id1993-161-21"class="external text"title="http://cucc.survex.com/expo/years/1993/log.htm#id1993-161-21"rel="nofollow">down to Knossos in 25 minutes</a>. Not sure about typical times required to climb out. Getting to and from 'a' on the surface (from just about anywhere) takes less time than for 'd'.
<p><b>Routefinding</b> In 161d there's a bit of piddling around near the entrance,
but nothing too confusing.
</p><p><b>Rigging</b> Just one ~15 metre pitch needs to be rigged to get to Knossos.
</p>
<tableclass="wikitable">
<tr>
<th> Pitch
</th><thalign="right"> Length
</th></tr>
<tr>
<td> Minoan Surprise
</td><tdalign="right"> ~15m
</td></tr></table>
<p>My recollection is that this pitch requires a rather longer rope than the pitch length suggests, as the rigging begins at the head of a rubble slope down to a traverse onto the pitch. <ahref="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&action=edit&redlink=1"class="new"title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 08:37, 1 June 2008 (BST)
</p><p>The modest tackle requirements and rigging/derigging burden favour 'd' if only a small number of people are interested in trying for the connection.
</p><p><b>Travel Time</b> I seem to remember it taking around 3/4 of an hour from 'd', mostly walking along big passage. In and out take about the same length of time, as it's mostly horizontal. You have to take into account the extra
time spent getting to the 'd' entrance on the surface.
<p>Would we use the Stone Bridge or the original top camp near KH? Is an underground camp necessary?
</p><p>Another question: would we need more cairns to mark the routes to the entrance(s) - are there any left over from last year? <ahref="/caving/wiki/User:Ed259"title="User:Ed259">Edvin</a>
</p>
<dl><dd> Yes you will need cairns, although probably not as many as are used on the path to 204 - although there are a few places where it's easy to loose the path there are several sections where once you're on the path it's reasonably obvious where to go. <ahref="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&action=edit&redlink=1"class="new"title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 06:00, 30 May 2008 (BST)
<p>Staying at the existing bivvy at 204 would probably be simplest in terms of organisation and call-outs, although it would require extra walking compared with the other options.
</p><p>Walking to 161a from 204 via the top of the Hint. Schwarzmooskogel is not too bad; there's a pretty easy route the whole way. Not sure if there's a good route from 204 to 161d round the east flank of the HSK.
</p><p>Equipment earmarked for 161 could of course be carried directly to the entrance from the car park.
<ahref="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&action=edit&redlink=1"class="new"title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 01:30, 29 May 2008 (BST)
</p><p>Another advantage of staying at the 204 bivvy: people would have a choice of whether to do KH or Tunnocks/Hauchhohle. For example if I was going down KH I might want to alternate longer trips in KH with shorter trips in Tunnockschacht. <ahref="/caving/wiki/User:Ed259"title="User:Ed259">Edvin</a>
</p>
<dl><dd>In practice alternating trips like that are unlikely to happen much unless you <i>really</i> enjoy carrying all your caving kit back and forth across the Hinter, or make an arrangement with someone the same size as you to share kit. <ahref="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&action=edit&redlink=1"class="new"title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 06:08, 3 June 2008 (BST)
<p>Setting up camp at the old Top Camp near the col would slightly shorten the walk to the cave and greatly shorten the walk from the car park. However, it would make for more complicated call-out arrangements.
</p><p>Gear could be stashed at Top Camp initially and then gradually moved to 204 or 161 as needed; actually that's true whichever camp is used for 161.
<ahref="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&action=edit&redlink=1"class="new"title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 01:30, 29 May 2008 (BST)]
</p>
<aname="Bivvy_near_161"></a><h4><spanclass="mw-headline">Bivvy near 161</span></h4>
<p>It's long been suggested that it might be possible to bivvy or camp near 161d or 161a, although nobody has yet tried it. If a suitable site can be found, this option would minimise the amount of time wasted walking between camp and cave. Call-out arrangements would be more complicated than using the 204 bivvy, and possibly more complicated than using Top Camp if the new bivvy site doesn't have mobile coverage.
<ahref="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&action=edit&redlink=1"class="new"title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 01:30, 29 May 2008 (BST)
</p><p>Right by the entrance of 161d there is mobile coverage (better reception than the 76 bivvy in fact). I dont know about nearer 161a though. <ahref="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:JennyB&action=edit&redlink=1"class="new"title="User:JennyB (not yet written)">JennyB</a> 01:25, 4 June 2008 (BST)
<p>An underground camp shouldn't be necessary to push for the connection. Getting to the leads in KH oughtn't to be too time consuming, and there's 'only' a little over 200m to drop to make the connection. However, if the connection is made with pushing time left on expo, it <i>may</i> be worth considering setting up a camp in the horizontal stuff at the bottom to facilitate thorough exploration. Whether this is worth doing will depend on several things, including:
</p>
<ul><li>How difficult the way in from 161 turns out to be
</li><li>How much pushing time is left on expo
</li><li>How many leads are left at the bottom after the first non-camping pushing trip
</li><li>How many people are interested
</li><li>What resources are available for camping
</li></ul>
<p><ahref="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&action=edit&redlink=1"class="new"title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 06:46, 28 May 2008 (BST)
<p>How much rope is required and do we have enough for this?
</p><p>As well as ropes required to reach Knossos from either 161a or 161d (see above), the following pitches will need to be rigged to reach the first good lead at The Far End (undescended pitch beneath The Bridge):
<p>Info for this table from <ahref="http://cucc.survex.com/expo/1623/161/farnth.htm"class="external text"title="http://cucc.survex.com/expo/1623/161/farnth.htm"rel="nofollow">Mainline to Far North description</a>, <ahref="http://cucc.survex.com/expo/1623/161/sibria.htm#yapate"class="external text"title="http://cucc.survex.com/expo/1623/161/sibria.htm#yapate"rel="nofollow">Mainline to Siberia description</a> and <ahref="http://cucc.survex.com/expo/fixaid.htm"class="external text"title="http://cucc.survex.com/expo/fixaid.htm"rel="nofollow">Fixed Aids in CUCC Caves</a>, plus a little from my own memory. <ahref="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&action=edit&redlink=1"class="new"title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 07:21, 28 May 2008 (BST)
</p><p>Note that [1],[2] and [3] are alternatives - only one of them needs to be rigged, although [3] will need to be rigged temporarily in order to rig [1] or [2]
</p><p>It would be a <i>very good idea</i> to install stainless steel anchors and maillons on the up-pitches at Staircase 36 and strange Upfall. Frank has offered to donate suitable hanger/anchor assemblies for this purpose. These should be installed very carefully by somebody who isn't a muppet - they're expensive anchors and should last for well beyond our lifetimes, so don't invite Mr. Cockup on the trip.
<p>So who from this year's expo is keen on coming down KH? This will ultimately determine whether it's worth pursuing this year or waiting until next year. I'm guessing we need at least 6-7 people? <ahref="/caving/wiki/User:Ed259"title="User:Ed259">Edvin</a>
</p><p>Even if you don't manage to assemble a team that wants to push for the connection, it would be well worth a couple of people going in (via 161d) and going on a recce trip to The Far End to get a first-hand idea of the difficulty level and how good some of the leads look. It would also be a good opportunity to install that stainless. You would then be 'primed' for a push in 2009. <ahref="/caving/wiki/index.php?title=User:Duncan.collis&action=edit&redlink=1"class="new"title="User:Duncan.collis (not yet written)">Duncan Collis</a> 01:18, 14 June 2008 (BST)
</p><p>1. Edvin <br/>
2. ?<br/>
3. ?<br/>
</p>
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